Transcript: 'Be the Change': Nazune Menka on creating the course, Decolonizing UC Berkeley

Listen to Be the Change: Nazune Menka on creating the course, Decolonizing UC Berkeley.

Nazune Menka: This can be a unique space, right? The university — it is a place of power. I know that. It's important that we are able to understand that if you have a voice, if you are in the room, you should use it.

[Music: "Saulsalita Soul" by Mr. RuiZ]

Savala Nolan: This is season two of Be the Change, a podcast that shares interviews with changemakers about how they became — and are becoming — the change they want to see in the world.

I’m Savala Nolan, director of Berkeley Law’s Thelton E. Henderson Center for Social Justice and author of Don’t Let It Get You Down: Essays on Race, Gender and the Body.

This season of Be the Change is a collaboration with Berkeley Voices, a podcast from the Office of Communications and Public Affairs at UC Berkeley.

In this episode, I talk with Nazune Menka, a lecturer at Berkeley Law and a supervising attorney for the campus’s Environmental Law Clinic. She is Denaakk’e from Alaska and Lumbee from North Carolina. In fall 2021, Nazune designed and taught a new undergraduate legal studies course called Decolonizing UC Berkeley and she taught Indigenous Peoples, Law and the United States at the law school in spring 2022.

During our conversation, Nazune and I talk about how to bring a decolonial lens to education, and about the joys and challenges of being a trailblazer who is pushing against the inherited wisdom and mythology surrounding UC Berkeley — a place we love deeply and, therefore, as James Baldwin said, claim the right to criticize and to call to higher levels of intellectual and moral honesty. We also get into how instinct can be a particularly powerful gift when you're part of a subordinated community, and storytelling as a portal to individual and communal healing.

[Music fades out]

Savala Nolan: Nazune, thank you so much for joining me today on Be the Change.

Nazune Menka: Thank you for having me.

Savala Nolan: I want to start with the course that you designed and taught. I know it started as Racial and Colonial Foundations of UC Berkeley as an undergrad course and has since, I guess, morphed, you might say, into Decolonizing UC Berkeley and maybe has a slightly different orientation in the second iteration than in the first.

But tell me about these courses. What were the learning objectives? What kind of material were you covering? Who were the students that enrolled? I want to just give people some sort of level-setting information about this project that you did to create these two courses.

Nazune Menka: Yeah. I'm really excited when I talk about this coursework and just this area of education, in general. There's a lot that goes into creating a course, as I'm sure you're well aware. But yes, it's an enjoyable process, really, in the sense that I was presented with an opportunity, really with the Truth and Justice Project, which is a collaboration between Professor Tony Platt and Professor Seth Davis, that's been ongoing since 2019, but I most recently joined in 2020 when I came to Berkeley.

And, you know, the Truth and Justice Project had been doing all of this research into the archives and the history of the university, and the conversation started to shift: OK, we're pulling up all of these really important, harsh truths about the history of the university, and Tony Platt created these really amazing reports on all of this information and had been working with students at the law school.

And really, it came down to where is the justice aspect, right? Like, is there a part of the Truth and Justice Project that needs to be actualized? And how do we share out this information as an act of engaging with justice and really wanting to bring the students into that?

The course in and of itself started out as a seminar, and I titled it Racial and Colonial Foundations, really, because I think that's, in my mind, what we were talking about, right? These primary reports go back to the inception of the university, talking about the creation of the name Berkeley, even.

And you know, I think after the summer of 2020 we really were thinking about this a lot more concertedly as a community. But I think also on an individual basis, right? As an Indigenous woman, I most certainly felt and feel excluded when I see colonial icons lifted up and memorialized in spaces and places that cross my path every day.

And so, part of the course is really about that, right? Like, the idea that there are a multitude of stories, worldviews, narratives and cultures that have really been erased by colonialism. And so, the course just really aims to think about: How can we lift up those worldviews, ideologies, even institutions, that have historically been marginalized or been otherwise erased?

And so, the class, which I was able to, I'm proud to say, get designated as an AC, or American Cultures designation course, lifts up a lot of different histories — especially within the Bay Area at large. And so, we bring in the idea of settler colonialism using Natsu Taylor Saito’s book Settler Colonialism, Race and the Law, which does a wonderful job of bringing in so many different aspects of the harms of imperialism, forced migrations.

And so, I'm able to think about and bring that to the students. And we have a lot of students that identify as Asian or South Asian or Pacific Islander, in addition to Indigenous, and, of course, the Bay Area has a wealth and rich history of African American history, as well.

And so, really, I wanted to bring all of that into a class and share some perspectives that I knew for a fact I had never been exposed to in a course at a university, in my personal experience.

And really, it is about a research course, right? Lifting up those different narratives and voices and allowing the students to look for a story that they want to share: What is the history of this place that we don't often hear about or know about or get educated about, and to do some research on to present that.

Savala Nolan: Yeah, I was never exposed to even, really, the, I mean, I was exposed to the concept of colonialism, of course, you know, through learning about the colonies as a youngster. But I was never exposed to the idea or the reality that settler colonialism is not a single event, but an ongoing process or an ongoing project, and that the erasures that you're talking about are purposeful, right? Maybe some of them are accidental, but on the level of a system, it's a purposeful erasure that's part of this project.

So, I'm incredibly moved, frankly, that our students are being offered this kind of education that I certainly missed, even though I went to many incredibly good schools, including UC Berkeley.

What is it like having undergrads in the class as opposed to, you know, say, law students? Do the undergrads bring a certain kind of energy or openness or maybe preconceptions or different instincts to the class than than our law students might?

Nazune Menka: Absolutely.

[Music: “Insatiable Toad” by Blue Dot Sessions]

This next semester, I'll be teaching a larger version of the class for the first time. Stay tuned to see how that goes. But this initial seminar from fall 2021 was a small cadre of, like, 10 students, and they were all so unique and brought different perspectives.

But I will say that one thing that they brought up pretty consistently was, really, the shock. They were not jaded like I think some of the law students have a tendency to be when learning about this kind of history that may or may not have come up in previous coursework for graduate students.

But for undergrads, by and large, they have this idealistic version of what Berkeley is and what the university itself is, right? And so, a lot of this is a narrative deconstruction of this idea that the university is based off of the civil rights movement and all of this great student leadership.

And in reality, if we look at the campus, we're not really memorializing as much about that particular history. We do have memorials that are focused on militarism, the Morrill Land grab or Grant Act, right? Things like that.

And so, the students are often surprised, I think. And then to hear the history of the Department of Anthropology and the stories that are associated with these kinds of, you know, I would say, disturbing past.

I had one of my students in the undergrad class do a podcast sample and she called it The Dark History of UC Berkeley. So, they bring with them an incredible amount of creativeness in their final projects, but also a real gratitude and appreciation. I mean, the evaluations that they shared basically were like, “This should be a required class for everyone who comes to the university.” Like, this is how impactful it was for them.

And so, I will say, though, that the students were also sharing out that they thought that law school would have more of this kind of critical-leaning lens. And so, I bring some of the decolonization conversation, including Natsu Taylor Saito’s work, to Indigenous People's Law in the United States, when I'm able to teach that.

Savala Nolan: Otherwise known as federal Indian law.

Nazune Menka: Otherwise known as federal Indian law.

Savala Nolan: OK.

Nazune Menka: And so, the way that I framed the class is really about, well, what does decolonization look like? If the case was written differently, what would be a more just outcome? What would recognizing the validity of an Indigenous worldview look like, right? So, bringing that into daily conversation.

And the students appreciated that so much and were honestly just thankful that they were able to have a class like this, where they thought they would have this kind of university education or experience, especially at law school, but were about to graduate and, save for this class, felt that they hadn't been able to experience that yet. And I think that's, you know, a little sad. But also I'm happy to be able to provide that.

Savala Nolan: Well, I mean, it really … it exemplifies being the change, right? Which is one of the reasons that I wanted to talk with you, is because you are turning off the beaten path and creating and embodying the kind of change that we hope to see or that you hope to see in the world, which is what these conversations are about.

I want to talk about some of the challenges and the joys of the coursework, either from your perspective as a professor or from the students’ perspective.

But before I do that, I want to just circle back, because you mentioned that some of your students, you know, they weren't even familiar with the history of the Department of Anthropology on campus. And I'm going to guess that some of our listeners are not familiar with the origins of that department or the work of that department. I wonder if I could impose on you to just kind of unpack it, you know, in a quick and dirty way, just to give people a little bit of an idea of what you're talking about.

Nazune Menka: Yeah, absolutely. So, the university initially did not have an anthropology department, but was keen to create one, and eventually, Alfred Kroeber came to the university. And anthropology in and of itself, I would say, undergoes iterations of what is acceptable and professional and ethical, right? During the early 1800s, mid-1800s and late 1800s, anthropology was really focused on Indigenous peoples and the assumption that Indigenous peoples were going to be extinct, right?

And so, this was kind of a, “Let's do a scavenger hunt and see the oldest, most traditional Indigenous person that we can find and extract as much information from them as possible.” And this is really what anthropologists were doing at the time. And you know, a lot of folks will come to Alfred Kroeber’s defense and say — which is a similar defense that we hear a lot — “It's a man of his times, and he was actually better than most.”

When the fact of the matter is that under Alfred Kroeberr's leadership, there was a plethora of grave digging and grave looting occurring across the state of California and abroad. And when Ishi, you know, finally was forced out of his traditional homelands, Alfred Kroeber messages and says, “I will come and get him.”

And he comes, and he brings this Indigenous Yahi man to the museum to live and work, as what I would call an indentured servant.

[Music ends]

He was employed as a janitor, but also was building and exhibiting traditional customary Indigenous practices for show.

Savala Nolan: It's extraordinarily … the exploitation is just breathtaking, really.

Nazune Menka: It's difficult for me to talk about it because there's, I think, a perspective that it's time to let Ishi rest. And by centering the conversation around Ishi, we're not allowing him to do that.

But at the same time, there's a courtyard on campus at Dwinelle Hall, which is where I taught the Racial and Colonial Foundations seminar. And it says Ishi Court. And there's nothing. There's no placard. There's no understanding of who Ishi is, the importance, and why it's important to remember Ishi, right?

So, the narrative saliency is really, like, stopping at just saying that this existed at one point, but the university hadn't done anything more, right? And so, one of my students did a reimagining of what Ishi Court could look like and actually created a digital rendition for part of their final project.

I mean, the students were really ingenious. But this just goes to show that the history of the university is vast and varied and in lots of many ways is hidden. And one of the things that I choose to do when I frame the course is to talk about why it's important to tell the stories, and how telling that story and telling these stories is a form of healing?

One of the first articles I have the students read is about historical trauma as a public narrative and how that impacts present-day health. And why do memorials, when done the right way, create space for healing.

Savala Nolan: I'd love to hear a little bit more about what you do in the course, how you talk about storytelling as a form of healing or as a portal to healing. You know, I come at that particular idea as a writer and an author and a Black woman who's descended from enslaved people. When I write and speak about that part of my personal history, which is also part of our collective history in this country, you know, the history of chattel slavery, it is healing. And I'm also always really wary of kind of freezing my forebears in, kind of, the amber of trauma and just, in a way, that has this sort of aura about it of display more than transformation.

Nazune Menka: Right.

Savala Nolan: And I'm curious how you all reckon with that in the course, especially given that this history that you're describing — UC Berkeley's history — it is history, but it's also the present, right? People walk through that courtyard that you were describing. And so, it's the past, but it's also right now, in its own way, too. So, I'd love your thoughts about how you reckon with those ideas in your course.

Nazune Menka: Yeah. And I think that's a really good question. I think the students, and I think myself, approach this with a level of mutuality and dynamism. This is a learning experience for all of us. But when it comes to understanding how to best move through spaces and to tell these stories, I do think that when it comes to the community connections — I had students who wanted to reach out to different Indigenous communities, and I had to ask them to slow down and think about: Is this extractive? What is the benefit of bringing this up to the community for your limited participation for a semester in a course?

That's one way to balance it out: Is this something that is going to be beneficial for the community? Or is this just because you want a good grade? I think that when we are trying to create and lift up different stories that there's a lot of respect that has to come along with that. And really, I think this is an area, of course, that could actually be improved upon because the research methodologies that I share out with the students — I have them read Linda Tuhiwai Smith’s Decolonizing Methodologies, which is about how to do research that is focused on reducing erasure.

There's lots of different possibilities for them to lean into a work. And if it's a particular project that could be viewed as extractive, or not beneficial to the community, then I just kind of push back on that. But, yeah, I think that’s a really good question.

I, personally, outside of the coursework, really lean into trying to engage on a case-by-case basis with that kind of a conversation. And I think it really matters what the community wants.

And so, if there was anybody who was looking to do work on public memorialization, that has to be done with the community. Like, I can't say, you know, I don't speak for all Indigenous peoples.

Savala Nolan: Right and, you know, no people is a monolith. So, there may, in theory, be differing instincts and intuitions among Indigenous people, even of the same community, about how to address these concerns, right?

Nazune Menka: Exactly. Exactly. And so, trying to hear from the community, I think, is always really important. You know, I think an interview can be useful for students to learn about that. But I also think it should be done in a way that information is returned to the community. Because I do try to have my students do stuff that can be publicly available, but sometimes the project that they might want to engage in isn't necessarily fit for that.

[Music: “Stale Case” by Blue Dot Sessions]

Savala Nolan: As promised, I want to circle back to the challenges and the joys of what you're doing. And I want to root our exploration of the challenges and the joys — I want to really strongly root it in the fact that you created this course where before there was none. Because one of the goals of this podcast series in these conversations is that we're giving listeners and law students tools or vocabulary or capacity for thinking about how they, too, might create things that don't currently exist and that are in service of a higher good and a broader good and a more capacious understanding of fairness in their communities.

So, if I can trouble you to think back to the process of creating or kind of unveiling this course. Of course, when you teach, you know, you're kind of always in the process of course creation. But if you can kind of put your mind in that gear, I would love to know where the joy or the happiness or the sense of satisfaction and accomplishment has come up for you. And also, some of the things that were just really tough nuts to crack as you were trying to get this coursework off the ground and institutionalized.

Nazune Menka: Yeah. Honestly, you know, this has been, really, all first-time experiences for me, right? I had no idea what I was doing.

Savala Nolan: (Laughs) Sounds about right! Join the club.

Nazune Menka: (Laughs) Yes. Every day, I'm paving the way.

Savala Nolan: Yes.

Nazune Menka: I obviously have been blessed to have worked with Tony Platt and Seth Davis in this work. And they have absolutely mentored me through this process. And so, you know, because I was partnering with the Truth and Justice Project, and because the primary materials had been researched and, really, this was, like, we've got to create a course to get this out as that actualized justice part of TJP and it was like, “Well, who would teach the class?” And it was just crickets on the email for a while.

And I was like, “Well, this is information that's rooted in a lot of the work that I'd done historically in working with community,” over the course of a few decades. And I did think to myself, “This is an opportunity for me to teach in a way, with substance that I can curate.

I'll share just a little short story about me taking a course as an undergraduate at North Carolina State University. I believe it was a course titled Native American History, and I just recall the professor telling the class that the Dawes Allotment Act was enacted by Congress with benevolent intentions, right?

Savala Nolan: Oof.

Nazune Menka: So, that this act was not nefarious. It didn't have any ill intent associated with it. And so at my core, I knew this was wrong. This is, you know, throwing up the red flags for me in the classroom.

And so, I challenged that professor in class. And I remember the other Native American student that was in class with me, I think there was just one other, they were not as vocal of a person as I was. And so, they didn't say anything. And I just remember feeling destroyed over this. I was angry, but at the same time, I was also kind of sad about it.

And so, I really didn't feel, I would say, vindicated about that experience until many years later, while I was taking a law course for the first time and actually learned that the Dawes Act was part of this huge, very concerted effort and part of an era of federal government policy to break up Indigenous communal landholdings and was an effort to assimilate Indigenous peoples into Western society. This is what I knew must surely have been the case, but didn't hear about it until, you know, maybe 15 years later.

And so, I really saw the opportunity to work with TJP and to create this course as a way to give back to students who I know are looking for these truths and this validation of something is not sitting well with you when you hear something that might not necessarily be getting them — even though we're at a place like Berkeley.

Savala Nolan: I love that you are, in some ways, honoring that little instinct that students can have, or any of us can have, when you hear something, particularly if it's coming from a source of power, and it just sets your radar off, you know, it just kind of makes your ears perk up a little bit. And I think that is more often than not incredibly valuable knowledge.

I'm using an oversimplified example here, but if you're in a subordinated position in society, you have to be very, very attuned to things that are a threat, right? It's almost an animal instinct about whether a predator is near you. I'm not saying that professor was a predator, and you were prey. I mean, I’m, you know, using that analogy, although it's imperfect.

I'm just trying to articulate that when a student is in class or when I'm in a meeting or wherever it may be, and someone says something, and you have that little inner feeling of feeling threatened or feeling in the crosshairs in some way, there's often some truth to that and it’s, I think, a survival skill when you are in a subordinated position within a culture.

So, I love to hear you honoring that. I may be putting a little, I don't know, maybe putting words in your mouth the way I described it. But I’d love to hear you responding to that experience that students have.

Nazune Menka: I think we do all have that, especially if we're coming from, you know, as first-generation college students, I think trying to challenge … this can be a unique space, the university. It is a place of power.

And so, I know that it's important that we are able to understand that if you have a voice, if you are in the room, you should use it. And I will say law school, I think, really was the catalyst for me to really lean into that and lean into it comfortably. And, you know, I was a nontraditional law student. I'm older than a lot of my peers who are just starting this work and to professordom.

But I think it's really important that we're sharing our experiences and validating those. And so, I appreciate you flagging that because, yeah, I do agree with you, right? It was very much part of, I'd say, my youth growing up knowing that something isn't sitting well with me right here. What is it?

I remember growing up in Alaska, for example, as an Alaska Native person. It was quite hostile. And I didn't understand why until many, many, many years later that I learned that Jim Crow laws in Alaska, segregation laws in Alaska, the signs on businesses said, “No Natives, No Filipinos and No Dogs.” And so, that was like, “What?” I just had no clue about the history and how it really informs where we are today. And if we don't talk about it, we can't heal from it, right? So, it’s just part of the work I think that we all should be doing something, personally.

Savala Nolan: Yes. And Jim Crow, in particular. I mean, that's living memory. That's not exactly ancient history.

Nazune Menka: Exactly.

Savala Nolan: So, its tentacles reach into our own lives in ways that are subtle and overt.

[Music: “woah” by Vincent Augustus]

I want to talk a little bit about what, for you, makes this work, this course work that you're creating, successful. In some ways, that's kind of a tricky word because I definitely don't mean metrics of success, like how many people are on the waitlist? Or how much are you being paid to teach it?

I'm thinking of success in a more capacious way, right? Like, what is the transformed world like if this course is successful? And that transformation could be big or little, you know, you could be thinking 50 years out or just about one student. But when we start projects that are meant to have an impact, it's helpful to think and to rethink as we go along about what success looks like.

So, from your perspective, as the person who created this research project and the coursework, what becomes possible if your coursework is successful?

Nazune Menka: Well, one of the reasons that I have reframed the class from kind of this passive Racial and Colonial Foundations of Cal to Decolonizing UC Berkeley was, really, to engage with an active voice. Like, let's understand that this is, like you had mentioned, settler colonialism is not an event; it's a process, and our work on decolonization is also a process.

And the class really just asks us to think about: What does it look like if we welcome a plethora of worldviews? What if at the law school we're recognizing three sovereigns? The Native nations as the first sovereigns of this land. And with all of our understandings of what public law is and including Native nations in that. That's about reducing the erasure of Native nations as institutions at the law school. So, that's one thing I think that future lawyers would start to be thinking about when they're engaging in this kind of work.

The other thing is really making sure that we understand how important storytelling is. I think a lot of folks don't think of lawyers as storytellers first and foremost, but I talk about it all the time, and I think it's really important that we understand the power, No. 1, of our own stories. And No. 2, the powerful stories that the past has to tell us. Because we don't want to repeat all of the tragic histories that have unfolded here.

And there's often this reaction to the word “decolonization.” It's like, “Well, what does that mean?” You know, “I'm not Native American. Does that mean I have to leave?” And that is what we're calling a faux choice, right? It's not about that. It's like, “Are you going to be willing to do the work of decolonization? Are you going to be willing to do the work to lift up these different worldviews,” which we all have? Whatever culture and communities you come from, that's worthy of a voice, as well.

It's not about centering Indigenous folks always and forever. It's really about making sure that we are embracing our collective communities while also recognizing the culture and rich history of the land on which we stand.

And so, I’m hopeful that on a macro level, the university will see that this is important, and it will shift the narrative of the story that they tell of themself and how they recognize that story. I think there are a lot of ways within which we as a community, within a community, as UC Berkeley, within the city of Berkeley, on ancestral Ohlone homelands, can begin to embrace and recognize and lift up and celebrate a multitude of different worldviews.

And so, I think there's opportunity to do any and all of the above. But it does require work. And I was very intentional about the readings that I chose for the class and the possibility that students are able to select different projects that speak to them, so that they're brought in to do this work of decolonization on a personal level and hopefully able to share it out. In fact, one of my students last semester just published her final project, or not from last semester, but fall 2021, in the Daily Cal.

Savala Nolan: Oh, congratulations to her. That's exciting.

Nazune Menka: Yes, very cool. She did a little piece on Memorial Stadium, telling the true history there, and got it published. And so, success.

Savala Nolan: Yes, that is success. I mean, a lot of what you're talking about, you know, it's not a legal way to put it, but a lot of what you're talking about is really busting the walls open on our imagination and our memory — our collective memory — in a way that is much more responsible and honest than kind of the status quo, I think.

And I just have to say, Nazune, I love that you — I hadn't heard that term before, of a faux choice about the response to calls for decolonization and sort of the, “Oh, well, what do I have to do? Move?” I mean, maybe. But I love that you highlight that as, like, that can't be the end of the conversation.

I think about this a lot with regard to anti-Black racism in the United States. And it's like the argument of, “I wasn't around, alive during slavery, so what responsibility do I have now?” And, like, sure, OK, I get that to an extent. But it's sort of like, if you live in the house that your great-grandparents built, like, no, you didn't build it, but you live there now. And if there is a leak, you have to fix that. So, thank you for expanding my vocabulary with that wonderful faux choice.

Nazune Menka: I do believe that's Natsu Taylor Saito’s language.

Savala Nolan: Yes, OK. Credit where credit is due. Always, always. But I learned it through you. So, I'm thanking you.

And the last question I want to ask you, Nazune, is: What is one thing that you wish someone had told you before you started this work? Before you actually began the process of building out a course and going through the hoops of having it slated on a schedule and approved, what's something you wish someone had told you that would have made it easier to get started?

Nazune Menka: Well, I think that it's actually the hardest part about creating the courses — developing the content and doing the intellectual, thought leadership work to make sure that it's curated in a way that's going to be effective. So, that was really the labor-intensive part.

Once I had, you know, an ear — shout out to Jon Marshall in legal studies and Tony Platt for getting the initial seminar going and approved and getting me paid for it — that was also like the intense labor, but was also really intensive joy associated with that because I was bringing in so many different pieces of my academic trajectory at my soon-to-be 44-year-old life into this one class where I was, like, “Hopefully this is going to be as impactful as possible, while not overwhelming the students.” And so that, I think for me, was the most difficult thing.

And then also, it was kind of hard to get the American Cultures designation because they really want you to have three cultures discussed, heavily. But that actually forced me to rethink teaching the course through more of a settler colonialism lens rather than a critical race theory lens and it was the right choice. And so, going through that process made me rethink the theoretical underpinnings of the class.

But that still dovetails with the intellectual work that is required to create a class and to curate the readings. But also it was the greatest part of doing the work, too. And I freely share the syllabus, which a lot of people don't like to share their syllabi out. But I share this with anyone and everyone who asks.

Savala Nolan: It sounds like it would have been fabulous if you had been assured ahead of time that there would be intense joy in the process of coalescing what you know into a thing of great potency and impact. That it wasn't just work, it would also be joyful. And that is the takeaway that I'm more than happy for our students to have.

Nazune Menka: Yeah. I mean, I'm very proud of the fact that I put this work together, but I'm more excited about the prospect of sharing this with students because it is a game-changer. I had a student who did their project and was like, “Nazune, I got into grad school with my project for your class.” Or my graduate student that was working with me on the class, “Nazune, I changed the trajectory of what I wanted to focus on with my thesis because of your class.” That's creating change, right? And in a good way, I hope.

Savala Nolan: Nazune, thank you so much for your time, and thank you for being an example of the change that we want to see in this world through creating this coursework and sharing it with a spirit of generosity for the whole community. I'm honored to know you and honored to chat with you. And I'm so thankful for you.

Nazune Menka: I will extend all of that and reflect it right back to you, because I think that your movement lawyering class, and the space you create for our students is invaluable. And now you're creating space for your colleagues. Thank you so much.

[Music: "Saulsalita Soul" by Mr. RuiZ]

Anne Brice: This season is a collaboration between Berkeley Law and the Office of Communications and Public Affairs at UC Berkeley. It was produced by me, Anne Brice.

To hear each episode, follow Berkeley Voices wherever you get your podcasts and look for the special Be the Change series. You can listen to the episodes and read the transcripts on You can also find Be the Change on Berkeley Law’s podcast hub at

[Music ends]